3. Questions and Answers

          - Lecture on the Method of Zen Meditation-

  

Honorable Great Zen Master Jinje : Ask any questions which have arisen in the course of your study.

 

Senior Monk 1 : Master, could you tell me the difference between tono tonsu (頓悟頓修) and tono chŏmsu (頓悟漸修)?

 

Jinje : The doctrine of tono tonsu, or sudden enlightenment and practice, and that of tono chŏmsu, or gradual practice after sudden enlightenment, both originated during the time of the fifth-patriarch Hung-jen (弘忍). The idea of tono tonsu was propounded by the fifth and sixth patriarchs.  The sixth patriarch had five disciples, all of whom were followers of the tono tonsu doctrine. The doctrine of tono chŏmsu was developed by Shen-hsiu (神秀) under the fifth patriarch, and by Ho-tso (荷澤) and Kuei-feng Tsung-mi (圭峰 宗密) under the sixth patriarch.  I dare say that the doctrine of gradual practice after sudden enlightenment was not endorsed by the originator of Zen Buddhism, as evidenced by the designation 'the outside man' for Shen-hsiu used by the fifth patriarch and by the designation 'the cognizant man' for Ho-tso, used by the sixth patriarch.

The supreme state of Zen meditation is to 'go straight into nirvana'. In the end, the ultimate truth is one finality, and once you have arrived there there is nothing left to practice or to realize, as it is practiced simultaneously with sudden enlightenment.

 

Senior Monk 2 : You once mounted the platform and said "I attained enlightenment and enlightenment." You used an episode of His Highness Zen Master Hyanggok as an example and said, "Hyanggok went to the mountain at a very early age.  He attained enlightenment when he was initiated and he attained enlightenment again while practicing meditation at Pongamsa." I'm confused about this. Once you have realized, in other words, once you have had vision of understanding through koan study, and have reached the land of nirvana, you say that there is nothing left to know or realize or explore.  But you also say that so and so attained enlightenment twice.  Is this possible?  Is this not contradictory? Is it possible to set a theory of sudden enlightenment and practice?

 

Jinje : I understand. Your doubts are not without foundation.  The sixth patriarch realized twice; initially it happened after hearing a mendicant monk chanting the Diamond Sutra in the marketplace. He thereafter paid a visit to the assembled monks of the fifth patriarch.  One day the patriarch declared, "Put in writing what you have observed through your study.  If anybody's views meet the truth, I'll appoint him the sixth patriarch."  Senior Monk Shen-hsiu wrote some incoherent phrases and plastered them on the wall.  The patriarch, seeing them, said, "He'll benefit from these phrases and not fall into evil if he lives by them."  He told the assemblage to burn incense and to commit the phrases to memory. So all the assemblage admired Senior Monk Shen-hsiu and memorized his phrases.  An old initiate, having heard a monk pass by the mill chanting the poem, knew immediately that it did not reflect the knowledge of Buddhist truth.  Since he did not know how to read, he asked the monk to write down the following poem for him;

  

  菩提本無樹

  明鏡亦非臺

  本來無一物

  何處惹塵埃

 

  A Bodhi is originally not a tree;

  A mirror is originally not a stand;

  There is originally not a thing;

  Where can we find a speck?            

 

When this poem of perception was placed alongside that of High Monk Shen-hsiu, there was a murmur of surprise among the assemblage.  Hearing the noise, the fifth patriarch came out of his room.  He saw that the poem was really that of an enlightened being and, worrying that the other monks would kill the author out of envy, he erased the poem, saying, "This is not a poem composed by an enlightened one."

The next day the patriarch secretly paid a visit to the mill and sharply struck the mill board three times.  Initiate Hui-neng, understanding his message, stealthily paid a visit to the master's room at third-time kyŏng (三更), around midnight when the other monks were asleep.

The fifth patriarch, putting his official robe around the door to keep the light from seeping out of the room, lectured Hui-neng on the Diamond Sutra. The initiate, hearing the phrase "Mind arises from nowhere," had another the realization. He then expressed his enlightenment, chanting:

 

  何期自性本自淸淨

  何期自性本不生滅

  何期自性本自具足

  何期自性本無動搖

  何期自性能生萬法

 

  How did I know that

  My own nature is originally clean?

  How did I know that

  My own nature is immortal?

  How did I know that

  My own nature is complete?

  How did I know that

  My own nature is unwavering?

  How did I know that

  My own nature is the origin of the world?

 

The patriarch, realizing he was fully enlightened, then made a silent transmission of the dharma.  Thus, the sixth patriarch was enlightened twice while an initiate.  There have been innumerable instances of this, such as Hsueh-feng (雪峰), Yen-t'ou (岩頭), and Lin-chi (臨濟).

Of course, the utter and absolute truth of dharma is one and one only.  So, once you've grasped the advanced phrase, this is the final stage of the absolute truth. Since all the principles are contained within  it, you are bound to know everything. However, before the final truth is realized, you may come across peripheral appearances of dharma. In other words, there is a period when you will obtain peripheral knowledge and mistakenly think that you have reached the final stage of truth. Therefore, you must penetrate further to the final and advanced phase of truth.  This is why many preceeding Zen masters were enlightened two or three times.

If you have cracked the supreme precept, you are bound to know all the other precepts, or koan (公案 kongan in Korean).  It is just like being able to see all the other mountains from the peak of Mount Everest. Unless you have solved the supreme precept, You will not have reached the land of Buddha and the Zen Masters. At this final stage, one is free to stay or go, kill or save, give or take. He is endowed with omnipotence. Once he is endowed with these capabilities, he is sure to be ranked with the Buddhas and Zen masters who have resided in the world of non-thinking.

 

Senior Monk : Let me ask you one more question, sir. Had you solved the supreme precept when His Highness Zen Master Hyanggok gave you the transmission poem?

 

Jinje : Of course I had. Otherwise, he wouldn't have transmitted the dharma to me. I attained enlightenment at the age of 24. I had taken part in Zen meditation with the other seven practitioners. The student of the hwadu, or koan must become immersed in the koan itself, forgetting himself, forgetting all sense of distinction, nearing the state of being a stoneman or a woodman, and from that, he must live from himself. This is the ideal way of attaining enlightenment. One should be careful when he imagines himself enlightened while merely on the periphery of the ideal state.

I was just like that. I had mistakenly thought I realized something.  I had made a circuit of senior high monks seeking recognition of my enlightenment, the problem was that they did not make a straightforward evaluation of my knowledge. Some said yes but others maintained reservations. My preoccupation with my small bit of knowledge became very dangerous, with the result that I  wasted over three years.  If my senior colleagues had made a merciless evaluation of the degree of my enlightenment, I would not have deviated from the right course for so long a period of time.

In 1959, when I was 26 years old, I stayed at Sangwŏnsa on Mount Odaesan, where I had a very hard time.  I was really roughing it, with no quilt, only a soft cushion, and the room was so cold in winter that the water in it turned into ice during the night. During the meditation session, the senior priests, who were all under 40 years old, gave me sharp blows with their bamboo sticks, which made my young shoulders tip to one side.

One extraordinarily warm winter day, I sat on the wooden floor of the meditation hall, reflecting on myself. I concluded that I had deceived the others as well as myself with a quasi-enlightenment and I decided to start again from scratch. I thought it necessary to be guided by a capable teacher and I went to see Zen Master Hyanggok, along with my traveling companions.  For homework, he gave me the hwadu of hyangŏm sangsuhwa (香嚴上樹話), the difficult task of biting the tree branch with ones teeth to save one's life, while answering a question coming from under the tree. I wrestled with this hwadu for two years. After finally solving it, I  found it very easy to answer other questions. I then became stuck over the precept of ilmyŏnbul wŏlmyŏnbul (日面佛月面佛), the precept of 'the face of the sun is Buddha; the face of the moon is Buddha.' It took me five more years to solve this one. Since that time, I have never gotten stuck over the precepts of the predecessors.

 

Senior Priest 2 : I have been studying the precept of 'three kŏns of hemp'(* one kun equals 600g. Asked about the identity of Buddha, Zen Master Tongsan answered, "Three kŏns of hemp."). Do you mean to say that even if I have solved this precept, I may get stuck over the precept of " ilmyŏnbul wŏlmyŏnbul"?

 

Jinje : It depends on the degree of profundity of your hwadu search. It sometimes happens that one is enlightened quickly to a low degree of truth. If the enlightenment has arisen from a long and laborious search, and if you have been engaged in a profound degree of self-immersion, the resultant enlightenment will be final and absolute. You will then no longer need any more hwadu exploration.

 

Senior priest 2 : Are there any shades of difference in the meaning of musim sammae (無心三昧), sungmyŏn illyŏ (熟眠一如), and omae illyŏ (寤寐一如), respectively meaning the practitioner of samadhi should be in a state of no mind,  the practitioner of samadhi should be as in a deep sleep, and the practitioner should be in samadhi all the time, whether he is awake or asleep?

 

Jinje : They are synonymous; they have the same meaning but adopt different expressions. They refer to the state which has lost any sense of distinction and consciousness of things foreign, like a stone or wooden statue.  As it were, the practitioner has lost the sense of time passing; he does not know where he is and does not sense his own body.  In this state the whole world becomes the hwadu, there is only the hwadu and the inquiry into it.

Senior Priest 2 : Was your first poem of realization the result of "hwakch'o1 taeo (廓徹大悟)," the ultimate enlightenment?

 

Jinje : Ha ha ha ha. The enlightened one knows it. I composed that poem after breaking off the hwadu  hyangŏm sangsuhwa ("the flower of the grand fragrance tree"), and composed the poem beginning with the phrase ilbong t'ado pirojŏng after understanding ilmyŏnbul wŏlmyŏnbul.  The two poems have this relation.

 

Senior Priest 3 : Regarding the proper attitude for a hwadu search, sir, when you had been studying the hwadu of 'the sun-face, the moon-face', had the state of self-immersion been going on for five years?

 

  Jinje: Sure. The iron rule is that enlightenment results from the state of immersion. But there is the problem of degree and extent. And it depends on people. In my case, the period of immersion didn't last for such  long period of time.

 

  Senior Priest 4: We hear that the preceding Zen masters conferred precepts on the practitioner of meditation according to his or her capability. These days sŏnims seem to hand out precepts regardless of one's capabilities, as if to mass-produce them on an assembly line, with the result that less attention is shown to the efficacy of the precepts. Is it be possible for you to confer a hwadu of your own making, one that suits the practitioner/inquirer?

 

  Jinje: That question comes from your sense of distinction. The magnitude of the hwadu does not guarantee the success or failure of the inquirer. It does not make any difference whether you are given one of a set of precepts or whether you are given a hwadu by a certain master or senior priest after the  question-and-answer session. What counts is the magnitude of your exploration, and your devotion and profundity, not that of the hwadu itself. Of course, if asked by a practitioner about the 'fundamental meaning of Buddha' or asked 'why Bodhi Dharma had come to the East', then I'll give a clue for further study, as the preceeding Zen masters did. Then he or she will have to study what they have been asked to solve. But the trend is that he or she comes and brusquely says, "I'm here to be given a hwadu."

  The kind of hwadu you are dealing with doesn't determine the success or failure of your inquiry. That depends entirely on the depth of your devotion and the intensity of your inquiry.

 

  Senior Priest 4: Is there any method to help produce a deeper motivation for inquiry?

 

  Jinje:I answer once again that it depends on the intensity of the inquiry.

 

  Senior Priest 5: I have a question concerning substantiation of the original enlightenment in the case of multi-tiered enlightenment, as viewed from the position of the later enlightenment. You said that you became stuck over the hwadu of 'the face of the sun is Buddha; the face of the moon is Buddha', after you had solved the hwadu of 'biting the tree branch with your teeth'. My question is whether there was any change in the meaning or aspect of the earlier enlightenment when viewed from the perspective of the later enlightenment.

 

  Jinje: No change after that. There is truth in every aspect of enlightenment. Of the seventeen hundred kongan, there is yŏraesŏn (如來禪) the precepts of Theoretical Zen and there are also peripheral stages of enlightenment. There is the primary phase and the epilogue. There is the advanced phase and the retrogressive phase. Once you have solved the summit of the advanced phase, your eyes will open to all the aspects of truth. Prior to the advanced stage, there are tiered stages of truth in which your eyes can see parts of the truth.

 

  Senior Priest 5: I understand that the advanced phase is not one of precepts but...

 

  Jinje: No, it's not. It's the advanced stage of truth.

 

  Senior Priest 5: You say it's not a kongan.

 

  Jinje: No, it's not. It's the summit of truth.

 

  Senior Priest 6: What do you mean by the advanced phase or the phase when viewed from the aspects of sipchi posalchi wi (bodhi-sattvas ranked 41 to 50), tŭnggak (the enlightenment of near supremacy, ranked 51), and myokak (妙覺: the supreme enlightenment, ranked 52)?

 

  Jinje: The advanced phase is Mahaparinirvana-dharma, so it is the state of the supreme enlightenment.

 

  Senior Priest 7: The 33 preceding Buddhas and Zen masters before Sixth Patriarch Hui-neng  propounded and propagated the Buddhist dogmas on a comparatively low-level yŏraesŏn (如來禪), or precepts of Theoretical Zen. These days you say that we are able to reach the supreme state of dharma through the understanding of Patriarchal Zen and the advanced phase.  How, then, can we evaluate the thirty-three preceeding Buddhas and Zen masters?

 

  Jinje: That's not so. The transference of dharma doctrine through language and non-language methods was not low-level or primitive. The meaning of the precepts were vivid and profound.

  Sakyamuni Buddha gave a dharma lecture to the assembled monks on three different occasions. The first dharma lecture was given to a crowd of one million. He silently held up to the multitude an udumbara flower which had been given to him by Sakra-devanam, the King of Tusita-Heaven. Another time, all the monks gathered to hear a dharma lecture from Sakyamuni Buddha, who left half his seat vacant when Mahakasyapa entered the room. Understanding the meaning of the half-emptied seat, Mahakasyapa took the other half; Sakyamuni Buddha then put the kasaya, the official robe, around them both and displayed it to the multitude.

  Seven days after Sakyamuni Buddha entered nirvana, Mahakasyapa returned to help propagate, the work in other regions. He made three circuits around the corpse of Sakyamuni Buddha and offered a bow, saying, "Honorable Great Master of the three physical worlds and Benefactor of the four stages of life--birth, age, illness, and death--, you have always preached to us that 'there is originally no birth, no age, no illness, and no death' and yet you have left us like this. Haven't you deceived us?" After this comment was uttered, two human feet protruded through the gold casket, which was 21cm thick. After Mahakasyapa bowed again, the two feet disappeared into the casket.  Soon after, the casket soared into  the air, erupting into the fire of wisdom,  it then burned up in the air.

 

  This is the three-time transmission of dharma by Sakyamuni Buddha. What did he mean by showing the flower to the multitude, half-emptying his seat, and pushing his feet through the casket? He established a supreme state of enlightenment and all the ramifications of the precepts originated from his dharma teachings. The other two examples of advanced precepts follow, in which case all the anecdotes, not merely a few words or phrases, have functioned as teachings of Buddhist dharma:

 

  The first anecdote: One day after the dharma lecture was over, a woman remained unmoving in her seat.  Noticing her, Manjusri Bodhi-sattva said to Sakyamuni, "When all the gathered monks have gone, why is that woman still sitting there, Your Honorable Buddha?"

  "The woman has placed herself in samadhi, or profound concentration, that is, self-immersion. Can you  wake her up from her state of immersion with your occult powers?"

  Manjusri Bodhi-sattva attempted to create the appearance of hundreds and thousands of Manjusris in the air by making a three-time clockwise circuit and flinging his fingers, but this did not work. Sakyamuni Buddha, observing this, said, "Manjusri, even with your occult powers, you will not be able to wake her up. Only the one person  can accomplish this miracle--a bodhi-sattva of the underworld named Mangmyŏng Ch'oji posal, who ranks between the 41st and 50th. As soon as he said this, the bodhi-sattva sprang from the earth and offered bows. Sakyamuni Buddha said to the posal, pointing to the woman in immersion, "Mangmyŏng, wake her up from her immersion." The bodhi-sattva flung her fingers three times and the woman woke from her deep concentration.

 

  The second anecdote: One day Sakyamuni Buddha had climbed onto the rostrum and seated himself silently when Manjusri Bodhi-sattva stepped forward and offered three bows, saying, "Look at the dharma of Buddha, it's just like this!" Hearing this, Sakyamuni Buddha came down from the platform.

 

  Why was Manjusri Bodhi-sattva, the teacher of the preceding seven Buddhas, who had worked hundreds and thousands of miracles, not able to wake the woman from immersion? Why was the low-level bodhi-sattva able to wake the woman with a flick of her fingers? What made Manjusri exclaim that "the dharma of Buddha is just like this" even though Sakyamuni Buddha sat silently?

  

There existed many such anecdotes of Sakyamuni Buddha's lifetime.  Of these, that of the three-time transmission is easy to decipher, whereas the stories of the woman in immersion and the perception of the dharma of Buddha are very difficult to comprehend. The prominent Zen masters of China, having attained the supreme level of Buddhist enlightenment, devised hundreds of kongan. Therefore, it is mistaken to say that the most advanced phrases or kongan have been created in modern times.

  To sum up: Dharma, the law of seeing the nature of things, is the same, not different, in varying times and places. The preceeding Buddhas' and Zen masters' ability to see the nature of things is the same as that of later practitioners. Seeing the nature of things is seeing the land of the mind; all the precepts spring from this truth; you can therefore know every kongan by seeing the land of the mind. Observe the devout who have gathered here. You all have the same purpose: to see the nature of things and become Buddhas, but each of you have different names and appearances. We call someone Park, but if Kim steps forward and says, "It's me," he is incorrect. This principle is the same throughout thousands of koans.

  

  Senior Priest 7: I'm so foolish not to be able to grasp what Your Honorable Master has said. Is Theoretical Zen different from Patriarchal Zen, sir?

 

  Jinje: No, not different.  The same. Always the same.

 

  Senior Priest 8: Regarding health problems, what did you do to keep fit until you attained enlightenment and what do you do now? Are you still holding the precepts?

 

  Jinje: It is natural that this body has some disease, however healthy it may appear.  Everybody has a bit of disease.  Therefore, you should not be concerned about your body.  It may have a stomachache, rheumatism, or the flu.  However, if you tend the hwadu diligently without minding these diseases, you will recover from them. In most cases, a monk's gastronomic disorders derive from dozing after over-eating.  If you eat properly, consuming only seventy or eighty percent of what you desire, and sit stretching the shoulders and the waist, then you may nod a bit, but the waist will not bend, even if you become sleepy.  If you bend the waist and hang down your head too much, your five viscera and six entrails will be burdened and cause various diseases.  Therefore, you must try to assume the correct posture. The maintenance of the right posture is essential throughout the entire course of your religious life. It enables you to endure long hours of practice and to maintain good health. The right posture of your shoulders and waist becomes possible when your eating habits are correctly established. Do not eat to your stomach's full capacity, or for the enjoyment of the meal itself, but for your health and for your enlightenment.

  If you are attached too much to your body, saying "I am weak" or "I have some disease," you will be caught by them.  Thus, I emphasize the importance of having a big mind, and not paying attention to trivial matters. I stress that you must have the capacity to disregard the minor ramifications of health problems. If you focus your concentration and your energy on kongan exploration, most health problems will be overcome.

  

  Even after you have been enlightened, you will have to continue practice in one way or other. At this stage, you will need have to make what you have realized become a part of your life.

 

  Senior Monk 8: You mean, the hwadu is not a special part of life?

 

  Jinje: You are right.  It is not the exploration of the hwadu, but rather that the enlightened state becomes everyday life.

 

  Senior Monk 9: You said we need to place the hwadu in front of our eyes. If we do so, are there two separate beings?

 

  Jinje: How so?

 

  Senior Monk 9: I can visualize two separate entities--the hwadu in front me, and me here behind it.

 

  Jinje: I mean that you need to focus your concentration on a point below your eye level. When you place your hwadu in front of your eyes, you will be able to continue to practice meditation for long periods of time.

 

  Senior Monk 9: I don't think the hwadu needs stay in a specific place.

 

  Jinje: Eh?

 

  Senior Monk9: The point is that you don't have to place it in a certain place.

 

  Jinje: No. You have to place it in front of you below your eye level.

 

  Senior Monk 9: What do you mean by 'thinking while doubting, doubting while thinking'? I suspect that if we do so, we will be stuck in thinking itself.

 

  Jinje: I don't mean figuring it out or evaluating the validity of the hwadu by thinking, but rather keeping it in mind, not losing track of it. I mean exploring and reasoning by doubting. I mean not losing track of the subject of the precepts by thinking, as we see in the case of: "What did Bodhi Dharma come to the East for?" "The pine tree in front of the garden." If you make the subject of the hwadu clear in your mind and keep thinking of the reasoning of the answer, you will enter a whirlpool state of vision, from which you will keep going on for days and  months. This means you are on the right course.

 

  Senior Monk 9: Do you mean that if one consistent thought continues, you don't have to keep track of the precept ?

 

  Jinje: Sure. Sure.

 

  Senior Monk 10: Do you approve of the expression, "View the hwadu"?

  

  Jinje: No. Viewing is the wrong expression. The hwadu is the object,  not of viewing, but of doubting, that is to say, of exploring and reasoning by doubting.  If true doubt suddenly appears and the practitioner  enters samadhi, he will sense neither himself nor the outside world.  There will only be a cluster of doubts. In the strictest sense, the hwadu is neither the subject nor the object, but the cluster of doubts itself.  

 

Senior Monk 10: By the way, I wonder whether this is a discriminating mind, but I used to doubt whether I was experiencing true doubt even while in the midst of the hwadu.  Is this how I should keep going ?

 

Jinje: If  doubting continues with a clear hwadu but without your fainting or being disillusioned, then you should  keep it up.

 

 Senior Monk 11: You said "doubt and think;" are they  different from each other?

 

Jinje: To think means to figure out the entire hwadu, and to doubt means to immerse yourself in it, for you don't know its true meaning.  Let me tell you this story.  When the Patriarch Ch'ao-chou was asked, "Why did the monk Dharma come to the East from the West?" he said, "A big cone pine tree."  The meditator must be clear about the entire hwadu, "A big cone pine tree," and this doubts as to why Ch'ao-chou answered in this way are to be investigated.

  In conclusion, Zen meditation requires two kinds of thought=function--keeping track of the subject of the  hwadu, and exploring the response to the hwadu question. These two must run parallel to each other. If you lose track of the subject during the course of  study, while investigating the response to the hwadu, you will plunge into a state of numbness and blankness. On the other hand, if you keep track of the subject of the hwadu, but do not support it with your reasoning activities, you will make no progress.